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Brandon's-Fids
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Post subject: Re: Banned for a week  Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:55 pm |
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Name: Brandon
Posts: 1529 Joined: Jun 2015 Location: Ireland,Dublin Gave happy chirps:
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Got happy chirps: 32 times
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JessiMuse wrote: Perhaps we need to look up the definitions of arguing.
1: give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view "defense attorneys argue that the police lacked “probable cause” to arrest the driver" 2: exchange or express diverging or opposite views, typically in a heated or angry way. "dont argue with me!"
When Paj says "I don't understand your argument", I think she's using the first definition which is used to describe a kind of debate, rather than the second which is used to describe a verbal "fight", so to say. I dont really care what Paj says and I dont think she is very knowledgable and considering her replies are so long she should give links to show her information.
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Brandon's-Fids
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Post subject: Re: Banned for a week  Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:57 pm |
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Name: Brandon
Posts: 1529 Joined: Jun 2015 Location: Ireland,Dublin Gave happy chirps:
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Got happy chirps: 32 times
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Bluekeet wrote: Me reading technical talk:  Your probably wondering what happened while you were away lol.
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Feathers
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Post subject: Re: Banned for a week  Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:38 pm |
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Name: Baruch
Posts: 3718 Joined: Jul 2013 Gave happy chirps:
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CAROLYN. I. LOVE. YOU!!!!! (Not in that way lol). You're awesome! I loved reading that. It was so fulfilling to me just reading you giving her that evidence.
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tielfan
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Post subject: Re: Banned for a week  Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:19 pm |
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Name: Carolyn
Posts: 7987 Joined: Jun 2008 Location: Arizona Gave happy chirps:
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And now it's her turn to give me some evidence, because all she's done so far is criticize portions of my comments that weren't actually very relevant without doing anything to back up her own claims. Going off on long tangents about the dangers about a 70% protein diet when no one's seriously talking about feeding that much protein to a bird. Talking about vitamin B12 (which is easy to supply) and maintaining a deathly silence about the lack of Vitamin D3 in her recipe, which is a lot harder to provide. The crickets were chirping over that subject lol. But the D3 is really off topic too, the real question here is the claims on that thread that seed is dangerously high in protein and that the protein in seed causes fatty liver disease.
I went back and glanced at some of the other claims about protein in that thread. Supposedly it is "real bad for them! it causes aggression, fatty liver, obesity, high cholesterol, cardiovascular problems." The last four items have all been linked to excess calories in the diet not to protein, and aggression hasn't been linked to diet at all. The conversation has already touched on the problems with saying that protein causes obesity and fatty liver disease, and if the discussion continues I'll ask for evidence about the aggression, high cholesterol and cardiovascular problems too.
Here's another one that's worth talking about if the conversation continues (and yes I am using this thread to save ideas for later): "Seeds are high in protein and lacking in many nutrients such as essential fatty acids regardless of when they are fed." Actually seeds and grains are very high in Omega 6 fatty acids, which are essential but tend to be oversupplied in the diet of both humans and pet birds. There isn't ANY grain that's rich in Omega 3 fatty acids which are also essential but much harder to supply. However there are a few oil seeds that are a great source of it - flax, chia, perilla, and believe it or not kiwi fruit seed.
"The benefit of gloop is that because it's very high in water (something that all parrots require in their diet) and in fiber (it's all whole grains, beans and veggies so it's naturally high in different kinds of fiber), they can eat as much as they want and will not gain weight (while, if you feed high protein food like seeds or pellets, you would need to restrict the intake and the bird will end up hungry). "
Seeds are high in fiber too and birds can easily drink all the water they want. I see mine taking sips all day long. I'd like to see her calculations of how many calories the gloop recipe provides, and how she knows that it's superior to the diet of someone else's bird who is fed a varied diet including various percentages of seed, pellets and veggies. We already know what's recommended for parrots, it's 3200-4200 calories per kg of food.
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tielfan
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Post subject: Re: Banned for a week  Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:34 pm |
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Name: Carolyn
Posts: 7987 Joined: Jun 2008 Location: Arizona Gave happy chirps:
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Starting a new post because the previous one was getting too long. This is an interesting statement: "it's never recommended to give the high protein food in the morning because, if you do, you have to ration it (and the bird will have to be hungry for hours before it gets its dinner...For dinner, they get a measured amount of a seed mix (the kind of mix and whether it has nuts added to it depends on the species itself). This amount is enough for the bird to fill his crop completely so it goes to sleep feeling full. And, because the body takes longer to digest protein, it's also an advantage to feed it at night as it's the longest period of time the bird will be without eating." That seems rather contradictory, doesn't it? A bird that eats protein in the morning will soon be hungry again and will have to starve all day until dinnertime. But a bird that eats protein at night will feel full for hours because protein digests slowly. So which one is it really? BTW the paleo diet hype for humans goes with the viewpoint that protein makes you feel full longer regardless of what time you eat it, and that's why it helps with weight loss. And now for something totally non-snarky. Here's something that Jessi said in the thread: Quote: I personally think that there's no better diet than a diet similar to what the bird may eat in the wild. This seems like it ought to be true, but it's actually undesirable to try to replicate the wild diet, because the nutrient needs of wild birds and pets are so different. In a nutshell, pet birds need about the same amount of protein, vitamins and minerals as wild birds but wild birds need a LOT more calories. If you try to replicate the wild diet, you'll either get the right amount of calories but not enough of anything else, or the right amount of everything else and way too many calories. What's really a lot more relevant is to try to meet your bird's protein, vitamin and mineral requirements without going overboard on the calories. Here's a quote from my pellet article: Quote: What parrots eat in the wild is only partly relevant. Your bird's natural habits should certainly be taken into consideration when planning the diet. But the energy needs and general lifestyle of pet birds is very different from that of wild birds, so their nutritional needs will be different. According to Koutsos et al,
"The diets consumed by free-living birds can rarely be duplicated in captivity because the vast range of seeds and other food items are not usually available in sufficient quantities. Even if these food items, or very similar ones, could be obtained, they may still not be nutritionally adequate. This is because birds usually eat a quantity of food necessary to satisfy their energy needs, and free-living birds have to expend considerable energy to support thermoregulation, extensive foraging, defenses, etc... Thus, the amount of food consumed by a free-living bird is much greater than the amount of the same foods consumed by that bird in captivity. However, the daily need for amino acids, minerals, and vitamins is relatively constant regardless of energy expenditure. Therefore, birds in captivity must acquire the same daily quantity of essential nutrients as free-living birds but with much less food consumed. Consequently, the concentrations (g/kg) of amino acids, vitamins, and minerals must be higher in captive diets than wild diets, and food items that might be sufficient for a wild bird can be inadequate for the same bird in captivity. Additionally, birds in the wild do not always have the nutritional wisdom to select adequate diets. Many animals are able to balance energy, amino acid, and calcium levels in their diets by selecting among dietary items, but there is little evidence that animals can select for adequate levels of many other nutrients."
In other words, captive birds need food that has lower calorie density and higher density of other nutrients than the food they'd eat in the wild. But the paper goes on to say that domestic plants have it the other way around.
"The nutritional characteristics of food items from domestic plants are often very different from those from native plants. In general, seeds from domestic plants are more concentrated in energy and lower in protein and many other essential nutrients than seeds available in the wild. Likewise, domestic fruits and vegetables are higher in energy and water but lower in other essential nutrients compared with relatives in the wild."
It's likely that many if not most wild birds have nutritional deficiencies, so the wild diet is not necessarily a good example of what the optimal diet would be. Voren says, "There are populations of birds and animals in habitats all over the world that survive and reproduce on grossly deficient diets. All a pair of living things has to do in order to maintain a population is survive long enough to produce two offspring that, in turn, survive long enough to reproduce. Living a long, healthy life has nothing to do with this." Koutsos et al and Klasing comment on the ability of birds to select adequate levels of some nutrients (including protein, calcium and salt) but their inability to select for other nutrients. The wild diet is obviously good enough to keep the species going but it's not likely to be a "perfect" diet that maximizes their life expectancy. The food supply is too variable and unreliable for that. Wild birds have a much shorter life expectancy than pets, largely because so many of them get picked off by predators. But predators prey on the weak, and how many of their victims are weak because of diet deficiencies or diet-related disease? There's no way for us to know.
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JessiMuse
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Post subject: Re: Banned for a week  Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:44 pm |
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Name: Jessi
Posts: 1230 Joined: Jul 2015 Location: Tucson Gave happy chirps:
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It's so amusing watching you two go back and forth.  It's like a battle of the brains.
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